The Boy and the Heron:What Do the 8 and 13 Malice-filled Stones Mean? -An Analysis of the Meaning Behind the Numbers “8” and “13”-

「The Boy and the Heron(Studio Ghibli Official)」is a 2023 animated feature film directed by Hayao Miyazaki.

This time, I would like to consider the meaning of the “malice-filled stones” depicted in the main story of the film.

As producer Toshio Suzuki has mentioned in various places, this work is an autobiographical piece by Director Miyazaki. And considering the flow of the main story, it seems almost obvious that the “13 malice-filled stones” represent the works that Director Miyazaki has created.

Basically, that explanation is sufficient, but the numbers “8” and “13” are nagging at me. You might be wondering, “What does ‘8’ refer to?” In the scene at the end of the story where the Granduncle shows the 13 stones to Mahito, you can see the “collapsing pile of stones” that the Granduncle himself has already stacked, and the number of stones stacked there is eight.

It’s just a number, but it’s surprisingly tricky. No matter how you count the works of Ghibli, Miyazaki, and Takahata from various perspectives, it’s hard to get them to add up to “8” and “13.” However, I’ve found that from a certain perspective, these numbers match up.

This time, I want to unravel what these numbers, “8” and “13,” meant. The hint lies in the relationship between Hayao Miyazaki and Isao Takahata, who is the model for the “Granduncle.” First, let’s look back at that.

*This article is an English translation of the original Japanese article, “【君たちはどう生きるか】冷たい8個の石と13個の石は何を意味するのか-「8」と「13」の数字に込められた思いを考察-“

An Analysis of the Meaning of the Numbers of the 8 Malice-filled Stones and 13 Malice-filled Stones

What the Granduncle Symbolizes – The Relationship Between Hayao Miyazaki and Isao Takahata and Their Production Chronology –

The Model for the Granduncle and the Tower

To consider what the number of malice-filled stones means, it’s necessary to think about what the “Granduncle” and the “world below” symbolize. I’ve written about this in detail in “What Do the Numerous Parakeets and Pelicans Mean? #The Granduncle’s Tower and the World Below -Preparing to Understand the Film-“, citing remarks from documentaries and interviews, but the summary is as follows.

“The Boy and the Heron” is a work with strong autobiographical elements from director Hayao Miyazaki, and

While the “Granduncle” in the film is explicitly stated to be modeled after director Isao Takahata,

The relationship between Hayao Miyazaki and Isao Takahata can be summarized as follows:

Based on this, it can be understood that the “Granduncle” depicted in “The Boy and the Heron” is not just a projection of Isao Takahata, but a being that also symbolizes Hayao Miyazaki himself and his creative life.

Furthermore, as summarized in “What Do the Parakeets and Pelicans Mean? #Hayao Miyazaki’s Statement in the Documentary“, Hayao Miyazaki’s animation production environment was harsh, to the point that Miyazaki felt he “lost friends” as a result.

Isao Takahata’s production environment was also harsh, and Toshio Suzuki recounts a powerful story in “Ghibli Textbook 19: The Tale of the Princess Kaguya(ジブリの教科書 19 かぐや姫の物語, in Japanese)” (as a reminiscence of Yoshifumi Kondō, the director of ‘Whisper of the Heart’):

On the night we visited Sendai for the ‘Whisper of the Heart’ campaign, his first and last directorial work, he started talking about Mr. Takahata and couldn’t stop. “Mr. Takahata tried to kill me. Just thinking about him still makes my body tremble.” He said this and cried for over two hours.

(Original Text in Japanese)
最初で最後の監督作となった『耳をすませば』のキャンペーンで仙台を訪れた日の夜、高畑さんのことを話しだしたら、止まらなくなりました。「高畑さんは僕のことを殺そうとした。高畑さんのことを考えると、いまだに体が震える。」そういって二時間以上、涙を流していました。

Quoting only this passage is indeed “taking it out of context,” so I encourage you to research more about Director Takahata, but I think it still gives a glimpse of the harshness of Isao Takahata’s animation production sites.

However, I believe it captures one aspect of the feelings of those who worked with Isao Takahata.

Based on the above, you can probably understand why the stones the Granduncle stacked and collected were described as “malice-filled.” Although they were excellent and beautiful works, the path to creating them was extremely harsh.

And Hayao Miyazaki worked with such a person. To be honest, I feel a little more preparation is needed, but I think you can understand my point to some extent now.

Production Chronology of Isao Takahata and Hayao Miyazaki

As a supplement to the relationship between Hayao Miyazaki and Isao Takahata reviewed above, let’s look back at their production chronology.

Release Year	Title	Production	Hayao Miyazaki’s Role	Isao Takahata’s Role
1968	Horus: Prince of the Sun	Toei Animation	Key Animation, Art Setting, Scene Design	Director
1972	Panda! Go, Panda!	A Production	Concept, Screenplay, Scene Setting, Key Animation	Director
1973	Panda! Go, Panda!: The Rainy-Day Circus	A Production	Concept, Screenplay, Scene Setting, Key Animation	Director
1974	Heidi, Girl of the Alps	Zuiyo Eizo	Scene Setting, Screen Composition	Direction, Director
1976	3000 Leagues in Search of Mother	Nippon Animation	Scene Setting, Layout	Direction, Director
1978	Future Boy Conan	Nippon Animation	Original Story, Screenplay, Storyboard, Director	—
1979	Lupin the 3rd: The Castle of Cagliostro	Tokyo Movie Shinsha	Director, Screenplay	—
1979	Anne of Green Gables	Nippon Animation	Scene Setting, Screen Composition	Director
1984	Nausicaä of the Valley of the Wind	Topcraft → Ghibli Preparation Office	Original Story, Screenplay, Director	Producer
1986	Castle in the Sky	Studio Ghibli	Original Story, Screenplay, Director	Producer
1988	My Neighbor Totoro	Studio Ghibli	Original Story, Screenplay, Director	—
1988	Grave of the Fireflies	Studio Ghibli	—	Director, Screenplay
1989	Kiki’s Delivery Service	Studio Ghibli	Screenplay, Director	Music Direction
1991	Only Yesterday	Studio Ghibli	Executive Producer	Director
1992	Porco Rosso	Studio Ghibli	Original Story, Screenplay, Director	—
1994	Pom Poko	Studio Ghibli	Planning	Director, Screenplay
1995	Whisper of the Heart	Studio Ghibli	Planning, Screenplay, Storyboard, Executive Producer	—
1997	Princess Mononoke	Studio Ghibli	Original Story, Screenplay, Director	—
1999	My Neighbors the Yamadas	Studio Ghibli	—	Director, Screenplay
2001	Spirited Away	Studio Ghibli	Original Story, Screenplay, Director	—
2004	Howl’s Moving Castle	Studio Ghibli	Director, Screenplay	—
2008	Ponyo	Studio Ghibli	Original Story, Screenplay, Director	—
2011	From Up on Poppy Hill	Studio Ghibli	Planning, Screenplay	—
2013	The Wind Rises	Studio Ghibli	Original Story, Screenplay, Director	—
2013	The Tale of the Princess Kaguya	Studio Ghibli	—	Director, Screenplay
2023	The Boy and the Heron	Studio Ghibli	Original Story, Screenplay, Director	—

You can see that their involvement with each other became extremely thin after “Only Yesterday,” which was produced at Studio Ghibli. At least from a filmmaking perspective, they don’t seem to have participated as “main staff” in each other’s works.

Now, let’s consider the meaning of the numbers “8” and “13.”

The Meaning of the Numbers “8” and “13”

Based on the relationship between Hayao Miyazaki and Isao Takahata summarized above, I will now consider what the numbers “8” and “13” meant. First, here is my conclusion.

Conclusion – The Number of Works Co-created with Isao Takahata and Those That Were Not –

To summarize the conclusion first, the 8 stones are the following 8 works:

Title	Release Year	Hayao Miyazaki’s Role	Isao Takahata’s Role
Horus: Prince of the Sun	1968	Key Animation, Art Setting, Scene Design	Director
Panda! Go, Panda!	1972, 1973	Concept, Screenplay, Scene Setting, Key Animation	Director
Heidi, Girl of the Alps	1974	Scene Setting, Screen Composition	Direction, Director
3000 Leagues in Search of Mother	1976	Scene Setting, Layout	Direction, Director
Anne of Green Gables	1979	Scene Setting, Screen Composition	Direction, Director
Only Yesterday	1991	Executive Producer	Director
Nausicaä of the Valley of the Wind	1984	Original Story, Screenplay, Director	Producer
Castle in the Sky	1986	Original Story, Screenplay, Director	Producer

“Panda! Go, Panda!” is treated as a single work, combining “Panda! Go, Panda!” released in 1972 and “Panda! Go, Panda!: The Rainy-Day Circus” released in 1973.

The 13 stones are the following 13 works:

Title	Release Year	Hayao Miyazaki’s Role
Future Boy Conan	1978	Original Story, Screenplay, Storyboard, Director
Lupin the 3rd: The Castle of Cagliostro	1979	Director, Screenplay
My Neighbor Totoro	1988	Original Story, Screenplay, Director
Kiki’s Delivery Service	1989	Screenplay, Director
Porco Rosso	1992	Original Story, Screenplay, Director
Whisper of the Heart	1995	Planning, Screenplay, Executive Producer
On Your Mark	1995	Original Story, Screenplay, Director
Princess Mononoke	1997	Original Story, Screenplay, Director
Spirited Away	2001	Original Story, Screenplay, Director
Howl’s Moving Castle	2004	Screenplay, Director
Ponyo	2008	Original Story, Screenplay, Director
From Up on Poppy Hill	2011	Planning, Screenplay
The Wind Rises	2013	Original Story, Screenplay, Director

The two works, “Pom Poko” and “The Tale of the Princess Kaguya,” are not included in the lists above. I will explain the reasons for this, including why the tables are arranged as they are.

Explanation – What Mahito’s Decision and the Parakeet King Mean –

When considering the numbers “8” and “13,” one of the important things is that the “Granduncle” is a projection of not only Isao Takahata but also Hayao Miyazaki.

If you think of the “Granduncle” as only Takahata or only Miyazaki, the meaning of the numbers of the malice-filled stones becomes unclear.

In the end, the 8 works listed above are “works that Hayao Miyazaki made with Isao Takahata,” and the 13 works are “works that Isao Takahata was not involved in.” To be precise, there is a story that Isao Takahata “helped” with “Future Boy Conan,” and he was involved in “Kiki’s Delivery Service” as a music director, but since his role was “music,” I have excluded it this time.

From the perspective of “co-created with Isao Takahata,” there is also the live-action documentary “The Story of Yanagawa’s Canals” (1987, directed by Isao Takahata, produced by Hayao Miyazaki), but I have excluded it because it is a live-action work.

Also, the “13 stones” list includes works that Hayao Miyazaki did not necessarily direct, but this is the same situation as the “8 stones” list including works that Isao Takahata did not direct. Also, for “Whisper of the Heart,” he did the storyboards, and for “From Up on Poppy Hill,” he had the important role of screenwriter, so I think it would be more problematic not to consider them as works that Hayao Miyazaki was involved in.

Furthermore, “Pom Poko” and “The Tale of the Princess Kaguya,” although directed by Isao Takahata, are excluded from the “8” and “13” candidates because Hayao Miyazaki’s involvement was minimal.

Now, I think it’s somewhat clear that the “malice-filled stones” are the works that were painstakingly created in a harsh environment, but the problem is that they were divided into “8” and “13.”

A hint to understanding this division is the depiction of the Granduncle trying to give Mahito the 13 stones he collected, Mahito refusing them, and finally the Parakeet King stacking them.

Regarding the Parakeet King, Toshio Suzuki also testifies as follows in an interview in “SWITCH Vol.41 No.9 Special Feature: The Adventure Around Ghibli”:

Miya-san says, “The Parakeet King is me.” And he said, “The other self I wanted to be is Mahito.”

(Original Text in Japanese)
宮さんは「インコ大王は自分だ」と言う。そして「なりたかったもう一人の自分が眞人だ」と言っていました。

Since the Parakeet King, who is Hayao Miyazaki’s alter ego, stacked them, the “13 stones” are the works that Hayao Miyazaki created, and Mahito’s refusal of the stones would be a self-criticism of the situation and methods used to create those 13 works.

And since the “8 stones” were stacked by the Granduncle, and the Granduncle is a projection of both Hayao Miyazaki and Isao Takahata, I think that would mean they are the works they created together.

In the end, Mahito brings the “malice-filled stone” into the real world while refusing it, but the meaning of that could be seen as a “determination to create works in a new form,” couldn’t it?

“The Boy and the Heron” is an autobiographical work by Hayao Miyazaki, and much self-criticism can be seen. However, it ultimately becomes a new starting point, and I think it has become a work that truly symbolizes “the man who is not finished, Hayao Miyazaki.”

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The above is my idea of the meaning of the numbers “8” and “13” of the “malice-filled stones.” I first had the numbers and then thought of various things to fit them, so I’m sure there are other opinions. However, I don’t think it’s that far off the mark.

What do you all think is the meaning of the numbers “8” and “13”?

The images used in this article are from the “Studio Ghibli Works Still Images” collection.